Speaker 1: 0:00

How's this fucking podcast? Let's do it. I am joined by the amazing Avi and Avi, my god man. Since you first signed up for coaching, you had a threesome, started your own business, published 34 videos, have three girls that you're seeing at the same time. You learned to give yourself love. You went balls deep with honesty, vulnerability and authenticity with the women that you're dating. You made a bunch of accountability partners who were going to push you for life. You started believing that you are actually attractive and worthy and like a billion other things. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:30

I I'm actually so glad the Discord group even exists, because the accountability group in the coaching.

Speaker 1: 0:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:36

For sure, Because I like the momentum I had in the coaching. Having the Discord to still post updates and the fact that everyone else is there has been cool for that reason.

Speaker 1: 0:47

You get to meet all the celebrities, like all of the people who've come through the coaching program like Ed is a really good example, but like Ravi and people like that, yeah, yeah, you get to go in there and be like hi, ed, I'm one of you now.

Speaker 2: 0:58

That's what it actually feels like. It's actually interesting seeing everyone's logs. Everyone else it's like oh shoot, I remember seeing you and now we're talking, which is which is cool.

Speaker 1: 1:07

Let's talk about the cool stuff. Let's talk about the threesome. You were so excited to have the threesome that you spent about two hours explaining what's how magical it was. But what was the threesome like?

Speaker 2: 1:18

It was something which I would not have been able to predict, even after reading about it, because of all the interesting sensations and just emotions that I felt when it's happening and, honestly, part of it is the buildup to it, it actually happening and the surrealness of it, like even put this in your guide. It's like losing your virginity again, the awkwardness and the figure out of how to make it happen and how to deal with multiple people. It's like it's like having your first time again, but it's also really fun and there's a million reasons why it's super sexy.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Yeah, it really does feel like you're a complete newbie again. Like you said, it's like wait. How do I logistically have two bodies in the same bed as me at once? How do I pleasure two people at once? How do I make sure someone doesn't feel left out? How do I make sure we're all having a good time? What sexual positions do I do? Like all of the positions change.

Speaker 2: 2:08

Honestly, I feel like the threesome went very well, and it really is thanks to your guide, because that made me come up with a game plan and a certain mindset which kind of just made it easier. And it's essentially just take the lead of everything so the girls don't feel awkward and make sure you involve everybody at all times. And I think that's kind of how I thought about it. As I switched from position to position or one thing to another, I made sure that when I was doing something, the other girl was essentially mirroring me and doing the same thing to the same girl and that made it go a lot more smoothly. It's actually funny when the girl she told me you know, as far as first threesome's go, that probably went a lot better than it would have, and I was thinking, yes, because of me, because I planned that shit. That's the reason it went so well.

Speaker 1: 2:47

I think anyone who has had a threesome where it's like complete random luck because I've you know, imogen and I have dated lots of women where they say, look, I've had a threesome before and we say, what was it like? And they're like either I don't remember because I was so fucking drunk and so were the other two, or it was kind of just like three drunk people fumbling their way through and I was like, okay, I guess, but like and here's the thing I hear the most Women will say I felt like I didn't get much of a chance to explore with the other woman because the guy was sort of making it all about him, and not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's the number one thing I put in that threesome guide. I was like just let the two chicks have a little bit of fun together, because if they haven't explored another woman together, that's going to be the main draw for them. And plus, it's hot as fuck for you watching and directing two women playing with each other.

Speaker 2: 3:31

No, absolutely. In fact, there was several times where it felt very surreal and I felt like this is a threesome, and the first one was when I awkwardly started it, because I remember in your guide saying you know how to be smooth, you just had to start it. So you know, essentially I have one girl sitting next to me and another girl sitting on the other side of me and, fun fact, I was in between them because I was insecure that if I wasn't, they would like each other more than me.

Speaker 1: 3:53

So I wanted to make sure I was in the middle. I had the exact same insecurity at the start of my threesome too, because the two girls, imogen and her best friend they started making out and I had this same. I had this wave of terror wash over me. I was like, oh shit, they don't need me, they were just here to like make out with each other and I'm just like the vessel for that to happen. Holy shit, I'm going to get left out. I had like a real big feeling of like, holy shit, tara. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:16

And actually I related to that because, like for me, even when they were talking at first, you know, because before we jumped into it I kind of give them space to just talk and connect with each other for a bit to get more comfortable, and I felt like, holy shit, they're going to walk so well right now, yeah, and I've kind of just been here.

Speaker 1: 4:30

They don't need me.

Speaker 2: 4:31

And also because I'm like three years older than one of them. So I kind of almost feel like I'm just like this guy who's like older than them. And these are these two young girls who are just like with me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:39

When I had my first threesome, I was 33 and they were both like 18. And so, yeah, same shit. I'm like I'm just the old boomer and they're just using me for my apartment because they don't have their own apartments and oh my God, they don't need me, like, yeah, I had all that kind of fear too. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:52

So both girls are next to me and what made it feel surreal was when I decided let me just pull the trigger, because in my head I remember what you said in the guide. You know how to be smooth. You have to pull the trigger, you just have to go for it. So I'm sitting there for like 10 minutes thinking, pull the trigger, pull the trigger, pull the trigger Until I say fuck it, you guys should kiss each other in the middle of them talking to, I just got to lean forward and say that and they both kind of look a little bit stunned. But they're like yeah, okay, do you want to? And the other girl's like yeah, I mean, if you're comfortable with it. And then they just kiss each other in front of me. And when I saw that them in front of me kissing, that's when I felt like, okay, it's happening. Yeah, regardless of what happens next. Like it's like this wave of pressure left me because it's like the outfit in the room has now gotten rid of you know. It's like we know why we came here and now it's on.

Speaker 2: 5:34

What was the best part? There's a few things that stick out that I want to say. I'll first say that like I felt like the three of them was in two phases. The first phase was just focused on them Because again I went off your guide like I was pretty textbook about where it's like focus on them at first but at some point focus on yourself. After the first phase of giving them a space to like focus on each other, which the hot parts were again just watching them, just go at each other, teaching them how to pleasure each other, kind of enjoying the visual pleasure of it. The hot parts were obviously like the double blow job.

Speaker 1: 6:02

And they're both like on either side of you.

Speaker 2: 6:05

It's when I'm kind of lying on the bed with my back against like the headrest of the bed and I just see them both with their backs arched and they're both going down on me and it's like you get the visual pleasure of seeing two girls with these really curvy, nice bodies and then both of their eyes looking at you while they're going down on you. That was so surreal. I've never felt the pleasure of like you know how, like at the base of your dick, you have like a certain sensation that's different from the tip. I never felt pleasure there during a blow job. I only feel that if I go all the way into a girl, because unless she can deep throat, you're not going to feel sensation there.

Speaker 2: 6:39

It was the first time where, with like tongues, I actually felt the pleasure there and I was like whoa, holy shit, I never felt this during a blow job before, and it's only possible because like they're both going at it at the same time. It was crazy to experience. And on top of that too, just again like just looking at them, just looking at two girls, like they're both different ethnicities, so like two different colors, and just looking at that, watching them curve in different angles while they go down on me. It was amazing, taking it all in. I was just looking at them the entire time, thinking holy shit, Wow, oh, my God, this feels good. Holy shit, I can't believe what I'm seeing right now.

Speaker 1: 7:12

And the fun part is when you start playing with one of them and the other girl is watching and she will say the same thing to you. She especially if you can encourage her to be more vocal she'll tell you holy shit, you two look so good together. Like she gets to enjoy doing that and then you can kind of swap and play with her while the other girl gets to watch. So it's sort of like touches on the voyeuristic fetish that a lot of us have. It's like I get to watch two people having sex and they both like me. It's not like I'm watching porn or I'm watching some other couple have sex. I'm watching a couple that are then going to turn towards me and say hey, we want you to be involved too. I think that's the biggest turn on for me as well is when I'm watching the two of them play with each other or play with me and something in my brain finally clicks and I go oh shit, wait, this isn't porn.

Speaker 1: 7:53

I thought I was watching two like lesbian porn. No, this is like two women that like me, especially when they say hey, come join us.

Speaker 2: 8:00

I get what you mean by. It's almost like you have like the porn filter on first when you're like watching it, and then something, just it seems so fake.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, it seems like like it's too hot for your brain to register that this is happening with you. You just think I'm watching this, especially if you do what I suggest at the start and let the two girls sort of play with each other and explore so they can get a feel for each other. Because, to be honest, I think that's a big part of the fantasy at least all the women I've taught to. That's a big part of the fantasy of a threesome is like I get to explore with a woman, like especially if they haven't never done that before. So you let them do that and that just looks hot. And then when they turn to you and go, would you like to come join us? And you're like what I get to? Like step into the porn. I get to be part of that.

Speaker 2: 8:44

I know, especially because girls they're very pretty, they have very innocent eyes a lot of times too, just looking at two girls with their innocent eyes, just look at me and ask that Because it was very cute, like they're both making out these shows and they both look at me at the same time like almost like this wonder in their eyes saying, yeah, can we do anything for you? And I'm like, yeah, I have to fucking move away and I would love to experience that.

Speaker 1: 9:05

Yeah, dude, the first couple of times I had a threesome, I almost felt like I wasn't I don't know if this is the right phrasing, but like I wasn't allowed that's not the right word but like I was like I can't ask for anything, and the same thing. They said to me like you know, how can we make you feel good? And I was like, am I allowed to, though? Is that asking too much? Like, look at what I'm just indulging in right now watching you two Like and now you both want to do something for me. But like I'm, you're fucking already doing something for me. And then I sort of tentatively, the first three times, said like well, you could both try giving me a blowjob. And that's almost just like too much, like overload to your brain. Your brain is like this isn't real. There are two women giving me a blowjob, and then they make out with each other, and then they look up at me and they're horny. Why are they getting horny over giving me a blowjob?

Speaker 2: 9:45

Like no, I agree, it's funny that you say it's like you almost, you almost like a bit timid to actually ask them to do anything to you. It's funny when I so, as I said, it's like two phases for me. The first phase was more focused on them and their pleasure, but when I went to the second phase where I was like, okay, for the past two hours I've been focusing on them, let me let myself enjoy this more. Because, honestly, the first part of it because of my first three some I was more worried about managing everything and making sure everything's okay, that I was never fully present for a lot of it, because I was more like this managerial mode. But yeah, after two hours and realizing that, okay, they they're having a good time, I did a lot of work making sure that they are enjoying themselves.

Speaker 2: 10:23

I can probably ask and let myself be a bit more selfish. So I kind of like, almost like that. I'm like, hey, do you guys feel like I've been pretty selfless for the most part? And they both said yes. And I said, is it okay if I'm more selfish for a bit so I can enjoy myself more? And they both said like yes.

Speaker 1: 10:40

That's a lot of people's turn on, by the way, Like can we please? You're basically saying I want you two to please me and a lot of people are like fuck, yes, that's hard to sell, yes, please.

Speaker 2: 10:49

I think, especially with these girls too, where I feel like a lot of especially very submissive girls and, I think, submissive people in general they get off on pleasuring the more dominant person. And that's what it felt like here, because, first of all, I got to show all my lust, because it's like the moment they said yes to that, the part of my brain which was worried about managing everything and making sure everything's okay, like that weight lifted and I was just like, okay, I'm doing what the fuck I want to do right now.

Speaker 1: 11:12

I'm horny animal mode now, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:14

Yeah, and I immediately like throw them both on the bed. I essentially bicep curl both of them at the same time and just motor both their asses and I just go crazy. At this point I do everything I can think of, like I'm kissing them ever, biting them, ever biting their thighs, their legs, I'm taking turns, even both that I'm taking turns butting them both over, fucking one for like 20 seconds, fucking the other for 20 seconds, and just everything I could think of. I'm just letting myself do. And that's when it felt the best, because now that I was no longer worried about managing everything, yeah, I was just enjoying it.

Speaker 2: 11:48

It's like almost like this whole two hour buildup was so I could have this reward at the end of letting myself.

Speaker 1: 11:53

Do this pleasure yeah, and surrender to the experience yeah, instead of trying to like do a perfect job.

Speaker 2: 11:58

I think surrender to the experience is a good way to put it, because, yeah, in a way it is like I let go when I stopped thinking I just did. It's almost like you're paying your dues at first and honestly, I'm kind of glad that I did it like that, because one like I wanted to be a good experience for everybody. One thing I really like in your guides in general is it's only fun for me if it's fun for you, and I like that way of thinking about sex, because it's more fun when it's like we all really want to do this, we all are really horny about this. It kind of not only gave me, it gave them a chance to enjoy it more and get more into it. It actually, I think, helped me relax because I don't have to perform right away. I don't have to worry about my own pleasure right away, I don't have to worry about like lasting long enough, because I just took care of that already. So now when I do whatever I want, there's no expectations. I can just enjoy myself.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Yeah, most of my threesome's go that same sort of way, even to this day. We will like, let's say, we meet a new girl right Been on a couple of dates, take her back to our place. We will focus basically 100% on her for the first I don't know half an hour, hour, whatever and like we will blindfold her, we will cover her body in oil and give her like almost a tantric massage. We might go down on her, we might use toys on her and help her orgasm. Like we spend the entire time focusing like 100% on her, almost like nothing with Imogen, nothing with me. Most of the time I'm fully dressed, even, or like mostly dressed, and we're just solely focusing on her. And then I do find that we really enjoy that, because then, like you said, we can then after an hour, do whatever the fuck we want.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I can now just fuck you, and if I come within a minute or two, what do I care? Like you've had fun and I'll do the same with Imogen as well. I'll give her like orgasms, I'll go down on her, we'll make her feel amazing, I'll get the other girl to help. Yeah, I usually, almost always, put myself last so that I can, like you said just completely, let go, because you know men and women's psychology or physiology sorry, is a little different. Generally speaking, once we come, once it's like right, I need a little bit of a break or the show's over. So, yeah, I like to stick that at the end so I can just be an animal and I don't have that thought of like I want to make sure I last. I don't give a shit if I come within a minute, because we just spent two hours making you both feel good.

Speaker 2: 14:04

So initially, I feel like a lot of times I approach sex was I'll put myself last, and I actually think I want to go back to that again, because it does take a lot of pressure off when you know that the person's satisfied and you can do what you want. Recently, though, I've been trying to be a lot more primal with sex. At first I was trying to be primal, which really what that means is. I'll remember the times where I was primal and letting go and just letting it out, and that would work pretty well when I could do it, but other times, if I was to in my head, that wouldn't work.

Speaker 2: 14:33

What I've been trying to do instead was get a bit more out of my head and more into my body to enjoy sex more, because oftentimes I feel like when I do think too much about how to pleasure the person and how to just be a good partner, I can do that orally, I can do that with my fingers, but my dick might not work because I'm too in my head to make it happen.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Recently, I've been trying to just stay more in my body and just feel everything that's happening, and that's been interesting because it's working in the sense that it's easier for me to get hard. It seems to also turn the girl on more because she can tell I'm coming from a place of genuine lust. I'm actually in the moment now, not just in my head trying to make things work, and I do like that. But I would like to almost combine it with put myself last thing, where it's like, okay, can I be in my body while like focusing on her, ravishing her, doing all the things I want to do to her, and then still put myself last and then let loose there too. So it's been interesting trying to find that balance.

Speaker 1: 15:34

One thing that I found to do exactly what you're saying is if I just keep my underpants on, that's an easy.

Speaker 1: 15:40

So what I mean there is, if I keep my underpants on, it's almost like a safety thing Safety is not the right word, but like a safety net so that I can let go and be that animalistic sort of passionate man where I'm pleasuring the shit out of them.

Speaker 1: 15:54

But because my dick's not out, it's like I can go completely wild and be that animal and like go down on them, finger them, go wild, tie them up, do crazy shit, but I'm not worried about like oh, then my dick will go in them, I'll come and it's kind of over. So that's one thing I found that really helps keep my underpants on until we're ready at the end to sort of focus entirely on me and have sex and be passionate and all of that. Take my underpants off and have sex, so you can go even further and keep your clothes completely on, and that's more like sort of a power play thing, like a dom sub kind of role. I do that sometimes. I keep everything on, I'm fully dressed, and then I can be as animalistic as I fucking want, but it's still all about her pleasure.

Speaker 2: 16:30

Yeah, In fact it's funny so that because I fuck some of the most submissive girls I've been with, they love when I have my clothes on and they're completely naked because they feel very vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Yeah, and you can turbo charge this and have a lot of fun with this. This is something I do where you can. Anyone who like works from home. You can keep working while they're fully naked and maybe you have them on a beanbag next to you or on the floor next to you or whatever. You're sitting on the couch or on your table like you're doing work, you're banging away on your keys or whatever, and you give her little commands every few minutes.

Speaker 1: 17:01

So you say, like play with your nipples for me. And she's just there naked playing with herself and you say go into the bedroom, get a butt plug, get some lube, put a butt plug in, come back. And you're just like working. While she's like masturbating, you say go get the vibrator, I want you to make yourself or get yourself to the edge. You're not allowed to orgasm and I want you to get yourself to the edge five times while I'm sitting here working, and so she can be there like absolutely getting herself off and becoming like completely, totally depraved. And you're just like sitting there working on your laptop. It's such a fun, like power dynamic. They get so unbelievably turned on by that shit and then you're just getting work done.

Speaker 2: 17:34

Yeah, that's funny. You say that because I work from home and I would have when I was still living in an apartment by myself. I would have girls come over. They would spend the night, I'd wake up, I'd be working, and whenever they would wake up, essentially their job was to try to distract me from work.

Speaker 1: 17:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:54

Like get completely naked, shake their ass, do all these crazy things while I'm just working, and it was. It was such a fun period because I had I think I was maybe seeing three or four girls at the time when I was doing that and it felt cool almost having this hair constantly trying to distract me, constantly trying to like, just get my attention while I just, yeah, while I worked. And yeah, I agree, it's super fun.

Speaker 1: 18:21

Yeah, it's such a beautiful power play. Yeah, especially if you and this almost always happens I'm someone who's very easily turned on in an image and jokes all the time. She's like you're really bad at being like I don't know what the word for it would be but like being Mr, like in charge and like yeah, you, eventually just I get so animalistic that I'm like I need a, I need to have sex now and so, like you can make it this fun game almost for yourself. Or it's like you think it's about her. You know she's in the position of being the one that's pleasure and playing with herself and all of that but it's more about you, at least from your point of view. Like, how long can I fucking last? How long can I just be Mr Professional businessman who's doing his work that doesn't worry about this horny girl over here who's master betting now? Long for me that.

Speaker 1: 19:01

I said like a little, yeah, you said like a little personal record. You're like alright, I made it for 30 minutes. I'm such a good boy. Look at how much work I did, yeah, you know it's like so much fun with this shit yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Yeah, no, I'm like that too, I, and I actually like that. I think, yeah, I definitely want to talk more about this at some point too. I feel like the cool thing about your content is it's almost getting an appreciation for your own sexuality as well as for women's sexuality, and then join the fact that you like women because I like women a lot, I like sexuality a lot and I like the fact that I am as horny as I am and that the girls I see appreciate that, because in a way, it's like Because I had so girls too who would tell me something similar where, like, I get turned on by them instantly. But they love the fact that I turn on by them instantly and I like the fact that I get to Share that with them.

Speaker 1: 19:48

I think it's about removing some of the stigma around sex, which is something I try and do. Removing the shame, because a lot of people have a lot of shame and guilt. You can go turbo charge with. You can turbo charge with the mindset that you're talking about here. I say the same thing when I've worked with clients who have like premature ejaculation, like they come very quickly.

Speaker 1: 20:06

There's a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, a lot of stories around that, and I kind of say what if we were to tell a story that this Is a good thing? What if it means that you're so unbelievably turned on by this woman, or you're so animalistic and primal and like just Horny that you literally can't last more than 30 seconds? What if you were to express all of that to her and really to yourself? And you know you come in 30 seconds and instead of having all this shame and guilt and like what the fuck is wrong with me, you just express it as like holy shit, I am so turned on by you. Look what you fucking did. Like woman, jesus, fucking Christ, you're so hot, holy shit. And then you just throw yourself into pleasuring her like that is the hottest thing ever. How is that not sexy as fuck? You couldn't even control yourself around her because she was so horny or, sorry, she was so hot. So yeah, it's about finding these sort of more Open, less judgmental ways of embracing sex, because at the end of the day, sex can be a beautiful thing or it can be this horrible, shameful thing. You're welcome to tell whatever fucking story you want to tell, but I just don't feel very good when I say that sex is bad and a Sin and evil and wrong and we shouldn't do it and we're using people and all of that kind of stuff doesn't feel very nice.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Yeah, and it's like it's interesting. I feel like when you're using the word story, it's like you can tell yourself a different story about what's happening, because on some level, I think some people might hear that and think, oh look, I'm just nothing's changing, I'm just telling the story differently, which on some level, maybe after the event, could be true, but it still gives you a bit more peace of mind, which is a good thing. But also, it's not necessarily the negative story isn't true either. You know, and in fact, with the lust thing, like, let's say, you get very horny around women and you feel like maybe it's too much and you tell yourself it's too much and that it's a bad thing. Just like you said, it can also be a good thing and in my experience, I feel like it is a good thing because if I, instead of having shame for that part of myself which gets super turned on, I let myself embrace and to be like I love the fact I get turned on and I get to share my sexuality With a woman and make her feel very wanted, that actually is what happens. I will get with the girl, I'll show her my lust and she will tell me how I made her feel super wanted, how she feels Super sexy, how she likes the fact that I can't get enough of her, and that's because, instead of having shame over the fact that I feel this lust, I just embrace it and I Enjoy it, like I generally like the fact I have lust, and I think, as I generally enjoy it, it works out well.

Speaker 2: 22:28

I feel like there's almost this idea that you shouldn't be super horny when going on dates and I understand, maybe sometimes people can go to the line of maybe being a bit creepier or something, but I actually feel like hornyness helps me on dates because it gives me energy and motivation To want to sleep with a person, which makes the conversation better and makes the energy better and just makes everything more exciting. Where the idea that you shouldn't be too horny? I think there's probably some shame rooted in that or maybe it was expressed poorly or something, but I feel like for me, no, like my lust is the reason that I'm able to get laid on dates when if I didn't have that, I don't think I would have been able to have a lot of like same-night Lays and stuff. It's only because I am attracted to a woman and I think I express it generally and authentically too, that it serves me and helps me a lot.

Speaker 1: 23:16

Yeah, I think that's again a symptom of sex being often rooted in shame and guilt and Conservativism and all that kind of stuff puritanical Values that we, especially in the West, tend to have around sex, where, yeah, like sex is considered a bad thing often, while simultaneously being the thing that we all talk about and it's used in advertising and all of that kind of stuff. It's a very almost like schizophrenic dichotomy that we've built around sex.

Speaker 2: 23:42

But Think about Hindus, man like India have like the, that, that tantric thing, or what is it? The Kamasutra?

Speaker 1: 23:49

but then it's Anyone who hasn't read the Kamasutra have a little flick through that. It's a very long Document. If you take the original it's like fucking long. This guy wrote it basically as like a. It talks about everything in life. It's not just about sex. That's what people take it as, but like there's a hell of a lot in there like and yeah, yeah it's, it's very much embraced, like sex is a part of life and Especially on dates, I'm very in touch with, or I like to be very honest with the people that I'm on a date with.

Speaker 1: 24:18

About that part of myself, like I find you fucking sexy and you can do whatever you would like with that energy. There's no pressure associated with that energy. I think maybe that's the thing that people are afraid of is like if I express my sexuality, I'll be putting pressure on the person. No, you just express it as look, I'm really attracted to you, really fucking hot. You can even say no pressure, but I'm just letting you know that I find you very sexy. Say it without an agenda, say it without any attachment. Say it without any expectation of what you expect. You know what you want to happen. They can say whatever the fuck they want back to that and you're okay with that. You're you open to all experiences and stuff. But yeah, I love that sexual energy that I have. I'm very honest about that with the people that I'm on a date with.

Speaker 2: 24:59

Can actually tell a story on what you just said.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Go go, go man.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Yeah, because, um, one thing which you told me which I really liked was the idea of just expressing it like sexuality Just as a thing, just as a matter of fact, where, yeah, there's no expectation, like you're just being honest. It's like if you find something attractive, you're saying, oh, I find you attractive, and there's not necessarily an attachment or pressure, any expectation with it.

Speaker 1: 25:21

You're more just being genuine with how you feel and the same way that you might say I have two left, I have two feet, I have two arms. You're just saying it, but yeah, I think a lot of the time when people express their sexuality, there's an attachment there. There's like there's a need from the other person. You're trying to get something from the other person, even if it's just please be nice, please don't reject me. It's like remove that, even if they reject you. That's beautiful too, but I interrupt it continue.

Speaker 2: 25:47

But exactly, though, it's almost like that matter of factness of just expressing something which you just find true and I Some experiences I had is like during the coaching, uh. So my dates which I really liked was when I started doing that, a lot about everything, even um, like with how nervous I'd feel, or how much I'd feel. Um, sometimes I'd feel so nervous that I would almost feel uh, numb and a bit of nothingness, because you're almost so nervous that your body's kind of shutting down a bit and it's like you have just being Okay with that as well and just saying like uh, because I remember, like, uh, you sent me a voice note and you said, would you just tell the girl right now that, uh, that you're gonna see, saying, hey, I feel a bit nervous right now. Uh, you get this one first date. Do you ever feel that way on a date? And all of a sudden you're connecting on a real level and I think that I internalized, because that immediately makes the date just feel so much more friendlier, and like, hey, I'm being vulnerable and this person is also being vulnerable with me, and now we're gonna be on the same team and now we're, uh, both people who are just talking on a real level off the bat and it's cool, it feels very comforting, and a place where I like this in terms of um, expressing sexuality, was because I had that principle in mind of just kind of being honest, just saying what I feel, what I feel being authentic about it, and almost letting go of any expectations with it. And just saying it because it's true was.

Speaker 2: 27:04

I remember I told a girl that, uh, I wanted to kiss her because I thought she was cute, and she said, um, she was, uh, she didn't want to do it right now, and I was completely okay with that. And actually when I uh, I think I asked her a question about it later and she said, um, that she liked that. I said that because it just felt like I was just being honest, because when I asked her again later, she said like, yeah, I'm thinking about kissing you two right now, and I was like, cool, well, let's do it. Like it felt so non-pressury and I kind of like that feeling of um being able to almost stay in touch with your sexuality and have a route to express it, with it still being comfortable for everybody Because there's no expectations. You're just saying what's true to you.

Speaker 2: 27:46

Yeah, actually, in fact a girl I didn't have, I didn't sleep with yet. I was also like we pretty much were telling each other how much we want to fuck each other before we fuck each other. We're like we didn't do it yet because, um, she said she needed more time. But it was cool being able to say, yeah, I'm really attracted to you and I want to do all these things to you. And she said I'm really attracted to you too, I'm doing all these things to you too. I'm not there yet, but, like, because there was no pressure and she knew there's no pressure expectation Is what I was saying. I'm just being honest. She got to express all her things that she wanted to do me to, and when we we eventually did have sex, it was very comfortable. Like we already had all these things in the air, we already had it very open and we got to talk about it and, yeah, it was really fun.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yeah, it's a really you. You've basically created, you've engineered a safe space where you can just talk about things without expectation, without pressure, without stories, without all of that kind of neediness and shit. You're talking essentially about abundance, mentality or Buddhism, really like non attachment. You're saying I want to kiss you Yo, you're really hot, by the way. Yo, I'm really attracted to you. Yeah, by the way, like, I'm super into you, like I want to have sex with you, and if we don't, that's fine. Like I don't mind. But like, yeah, I'm attracted to you. You're saying that with no expectation so the other person can say well, look, like you know, like you had. Yeah, I want to have sex with you too, but I'm just not ready yet. You go, that's cool. Like, do you want to talk about when you'll be ready? Do you want to just play it by ear? Like, I don't mind, we'll have sex now, we'll have sex in the future, I don't really care. Even if we never have sex, that's fine too. Like I don't care.

Speaker 1: 29:08

We had this. You and I had this discussion today. We were going through a million fucking tech issues to get this podcast. Wait, brother, we spent, we did a good job, brother. We spent an hour and a half getting this fucking thing working, didn't we? We did some fucking techish, we, everybody at home, holy shit. We put an hour and a half into it before we even went live with this shit and I said to you if you never get this working and we don't do this podcast, that's fine. Like I don't care. We'll either fix it or we won't.

Speaker 1: 29:37

Like, like what do I care? And having that sort of safe space for somebody else to then sit in and go, okay, there's like no pressure here Makes this whole process a lot more fun, a lot easier. And you can just be more honest. The number of dates I mean I just do this every single date now. So, like I've probably done this I don't know 50 times where Imogen and I will go on a date with a girl, especially if she's very inexperienced, or we've been on plenty dates with like virgins. We will say, look, obviously we want to have sex with you. That's what we're here for. Like we're into btsm. You know, we all know why we're here. But if you're not ready, like we'll do it whenever you're ready.

Speaker 1: 30:09

Like, what stuff do you want to try? What are you looking forward to? What's your timeline. Like, like, how long do you think it will take you before you feel comfortable, or do you want to just try kissing first? Do you want to just try some stuff first?

Speaker 1: 30:19

We have that conversation with basically every woman, especially the really nervous ones, and it means we can be in that nice little safe space where we can say, okay, what are you comfortable with?

Speaker 1: 30:27

And she goes Well, I don't know. Like, like, maybe I would be okay with just some gentle touching, cool. Like, what do you mean by gentle touching? Like, do you want us to just touch your body? Do you want us to caress you like you're pussy or like not at all? Like, what do you actually want? Well, maybe we can just try like touching boobs. Cool, sweet. If you're not happy with that, you just tell us. If you want us to stop, you can just fucking tell us, that's fine. Like you take away all that fucking pressure and then, yeah, there's no agenda there, there's no like force that's required, or manipulation, or Hoping that you'll get what you want and the other person will just be okay with it. It's, it's a lot more of a comfortable playground to then start exploring together and you end up having like fucking kia sex anyway, because now the person fucking trusts you and they can open up to you about their biggest kinks and their wildest fantasies and all of that, and you both feel comfortable with that shit.

Speaker 2: 31:14

So I think it's probably one of my favorite takeaways from the coaching was the feeling of being able to do all this without expectation or pressure.

Speaker 1: 31:24

Because being okay with whatever happens.

Speaker 2: 31:27

Yeah, because I think it does a lot for yourself too, because I think, beyond just making the sex better, it makes you enjoy everything more when you're not so attached to a certain outcome, because that's what kind of creates the pressure.

Speaker 1: 31:39

It's really fucking hard to enjoy what you're doing when you're terrified that the next step she might say no to and it's all over. Yeah, you know conversations of like last minute resistance, which, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, let's say you're with a partner or a potential partner, you're about to have sex and then the person, right at the last second, like literally closed or about to come off, or maybe they're already off, and the person just goes whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think I'm comfortable with this. Like I, can we stop? They call that like last minute resistance. There's a very interesting, very strange idea that there's all these different techniques that you're supposed to use to just push through last minute resistance. Which, what the fuck? But like there's so much shit where it's like say this, do this, like, just try this, do this technique, talk about this, use this, rather than just saying like, ok, you don't want to do it, cool, that's fine. Like, let's fucking chill.

Speaker 2: 32:31

So I think the concept is kind of funny too of last minute resistance, because at something I've never really experienced and or technically I guess I have, but I wouldn't even frame it like that, just call it that. Yeah, it just feels more like oh, this person, this human being has certain things are going through at the moment. Let's talk about it. And how many times during the coaching I tell you like I had so many stories where I had last minute resistance Not that I called that, but what people would call that and we had sex anyways, because we had the conversation and it wouldn't even be to me initiating the sex at that point. It's more like she would express her worry and I would just let her know yeah, that's totally cool, that's OK, like, like, and also you can have a conversation about. It's like there's no rules or landmines, you have to be worried about stepping on. It's just more this person's worried. Let me see what they're worried about and let's see if I can help solve any of their worries, and let's say you do that, and then nothing happens at that moment for me, maybe we'd cuddle for a bit longer and then she would initiate, because now she felt more comfortable and then she was the one who was like leading everything forward. Yeah, so it's just, I think, the idea. If it's kind of funny too, because again I get it I get like when you want this thing really badly and you're only looking at that, you are looking at strategies to get that thing, regardless of whatever else you might affect. And I'm not even going to demonize anyone who does that, only because I understand the feeling of like really maybe like desperately wanting something, whatever it might be.

Speaker 1: 33:54

It comes from firmly believing a story yeah, believing that you need this thing from this other person. And when we believe that, when we believe it very firmly, like I need sex tonight, or I need validation tonight, or I need love tonight, or I need affection, whatever it might be it can be very easy to see the person who's just feeling a little bit of concern or worry or like well, can we just like slow down a little bit, or I have my own fears and concerns. It can be very easy to see that person is the enemy, because now they're the person that's stopping you from getting the thing that you need. And so, yeah, you start, you put the gloves on metaphorically, you start boxing. You start like fighting the last minute. Resistance, like listen to the language used resistance they're not resisting, they just nervous. It's got nothing to do with you. You tell a story that they're stopping me from the thing I want.

Speaker 1: 34:42

No, there, as you said, sort of a human being who's going through something right now. And in the same way, I always like to flip it and say you know, if someone was doing something to you or about to do something to you and you would like, you just needed to hit the pause button for half a second and have a little think about it. Let's say you had a pushy salesperson who was like fucking going hard with the sales techniques and you just wanted to pause for a little second and make sure this was the right decision. Would you be comfortable with them busting through your last minute resistance? Fuck, no, you'd be like that's not respecting me, you're not listening to me, to give a fuck about me. Like yo, I'm a person. Just chill for half a second so I can think about this, and so we're not comfortable when it happens to us. But we sort of lose sight of that a little bit because we're so hyper focused on this goal or this story, this attachment to like I need this right now that we don't pause and pull back a little bit.

Speaker 1: 35:31

And every single person I've worked with when I say like because lots of people put pressure on themselves, you did, and maybe we'll talk about this in a second I sure as fuck did to. You had all this pressure on yourself of like I have to have sex on the first date, otherwise it means I'm not good enough or I'm not attractive or they'll lose interest after like Lock them in almost because I don't think I'm an interesting enough person without sex, and so if my penis doesn't go in them with him, why the fuck would they stick around? I'm boring, I'm not cool, I'm not worthy. I had those same stories, brother, and so we put all this pressure and we have all this attachment. But when I can get people and you know, I went through this myself when I can get people to step back a little bit and go, yeah well, what bad thing happens If you don't get the thing that you want tonight or ever from this person or anyone, and you stop and you think about it, you breathe a little bit, you calm down, you go. Well, I mean, I guess it wouldn't be that, it wouldn't even matter if they didn't have sex with me. They would just have sex with me in the future or never, and I would just find someone else to have sex with, or I'd have sex with nobody and I guess they would just build a great career, help out in the community, have lots of friends, go to the gym, do lots of. I guess my life would be okay if I never had sex.

Speaker 1: 36:39

But it can be so easy to get lost, lost in the stories I did to for the longest time. We get lost in the details. We see the person is the enemy and we forget like wait, this is a human being who is going through their own stories, their own shit. And I thought that they were on my team but I lost that somehow and I saw them as the enemy. And then that's a weird dynamic to come from to, because now you're trying to put your penis in or accept a penis from somebody that you're seeing is the enemy. You're trying to fuck the enemy what? Why is your dick or your pussy going to the enemy? So switch that around and say, oh, they're my friend, they're on my team.

Speaker 2: 37:16

Yeah, and it feels a lot better. What do you like that to? I think it also. I think the way people talk about sex, sometimes kind of supports, that was like I got this from the some, this person, or they gave it up. I really like that language too much because on some level to, I don't really feel like a. I don't feel like I'm getting something from a woman when I'm having sex with them. I feel like it's more we're sharing something together, yeah, but also the same space, yeah, but also feel like that mindset is kind of what makes people think, oh, I have to get this from this person works like no, like she wants this to, though, like the thing you think you're getting, she's getting to, like you guys are actually both getting something from what you're doing right now, and it's also it feels a lot easier when you're approaching it from that perspective of like, oh, we both get to get this thing together. How can we support each other and maybe take care of each other's minds to get to that point the whole?

Speaker 1: 38:08

dynamic changes. The whole dynamic, the whole system changes completely. When you see it as two people coming together and just seeing if they both want the same thing, or seeing if they're willing to try the same thing, you know you start coming from a place of honesty. You embrace things like screening or filtering out the people who aren't looking for what you're looking for and filtering in the people who are. You embrace honesty, you embrace being up front, because now, instead of trying to get the thing from the person and using whatever tactics you need to use for that to happen which is like manipulation, lying, lying through, obfuscation, like like not being up front those are the techniques that get you something from someone else. That's like force. You have to use force, you have to use manipulation, but if you can embrace honesty and just, I'm looking for this, are you looking for this as well? If not, cool, sweet, go enjoy your life. I'm gonna go find the person who does want this thing. Now, that's like power.

Speaker 1: 39:03

When I say power, most people think of power as like all power, like getting something from someone. That's force. Power comes from within. Powers like stoicism, powers nonattachment, powers like Buddhism is the power to walk away. It's the power to say like, hey, if you don't want the thing that I'm looking for, that's beautiful, great. I don't want you to want what I want if you don't want it. I don't want you to give me what I want if you don't want to give it to me.

Speaker 1: 39:27

You know it's that saying that I say all the time. It's only fun if you're also having fun. I only want you to be here if you want to be here. I would rather you be happy with someone else than unhappy with me. But I think that 95% of dating, 95% of relationships, 95% of sex, 95% of business people have this mindset of I have to get something from the other person, rather than how can we come together and have a great experience, how can we give value to each other? How can I make your life a little better? And if you want to, you can make my life a little better. And if either of us are unhappy with that dynamic, hey, we can change something, we can improve it, we can talk about it, we can leave there's no expectation that.

Speaker 2: 40:08

I honestly there's so many things I want to say. What you said, man, like the start. I feel like there's a lot of joy in relationships and friendships where you have the desire to give to the person. You can enjoy that, because I actually have a friendship right now that I built more recently and I have the genuine desire to listen to this person, to help them out in any way I can and they have the same for me. And even if they didn't have the same for me in this case, I still feel it for them and I love when I, when they say they made progress in a certain way, I feel generally happy and at times where I say I can help them and I do help them, it feels good, like I actually, it almost it actually will take me out of a bad mood when I can help them. So there is a pleasure out of it, first of all, which, like. It's like, yes, you're giving, but in a way you do, there is something you receive to, even if, like, you're not necessarily Looking for that.

Speaker 1: 41:03

Yeah, that's why the stuff is not a zero sum game. A lot of people will look at it like a zero sum game. They'll go oh, but if I'm giving to someone and I just letting them walk all over me, aren't they taking from me? And it's like, if you feel like that, then sure, yep. If you tell that story, then yep, sure, it is a zero sum game, which basically means one person wins, another person has to lose.

Speaker 1: 41:22

But it just isn't my experience. My experience of life is almost everything if I'm giving, I receive as much, maybe more, than the person that I'm Giving to, and so they then feel gratitude and they will often and I don't expect them to, but often they will express gratitude back to me and then I go well, I'm grateful for you just expressing gratitude to me. Holy shit, now we've both just won like three separate times from this act that I did and I just isn't my experience that this universe is a zero sum game. I can generate smiles out of nowhere. I can put a smile on your face and that puts a smile on my face. I essentially just it's almost like we're breaking mutants. What is it? His third law of thermo?

Speaker 2: 42:05

energy can.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Yeah, that that like the universe is going towards entropy and that there's only a set amount of of Energy in the universe. I just that that almost doesn't ring true to me, because it's like, well, how did I just generate? And people would get autistic about that and be like, well, technically you use the food and the calories to make that Sure, fine, whatever. But like, just stick with me for a little bit here. It doesn't feel like a zero sum universe. It feels like I can make someone smile and feel good in the process, and so I've tried to live my life like that. So, yeah, we can kind of have a separate discussion there and talk about like None of this stuff is you sacrificing. We're not saying to sacrifice your happiness for someone else, no, but like, try and give a train make someone smile. If you can't do that, that's fine.

Speaker 1: 42:48

Like it took both of us quite a bit of practice. You were fucking terrified to start doing a lot of this stuff. So was I. If you're happy to, let's segue a little bit. Let's circle back to something that we said before, where you were sort of really nervous to start doing this stuff at first with, like women, to start really like being okay with whatever happened, especially on first dates. You had a big story, you know, coming from a place of, I guess, insecurity or just fear that you had to have sex on the first day, otherwise they wouldn't like you. You felt like you had nothing to offer other than your dick, I guess in your sexuality, like how did that start switching around in your mind?

Speaker 2: 43:24

Yes. So, as you said, I essentially had this idea in my mind that If I won, if I didn't sleep with you on the first date, that that somehow reflected that there was something wrong with me and that I was losing some sort of skill or attractiveness that I had. And a big reason I thought that way was because I felt like me as a person, my own character, my personality, my charm was not good enough or even okay enough that someone would want to see me outside of sex. So because I had that mindset, I would put a lot of pressure myself to have sex on the first date, even if I didn't want to and, to be honest, most of the time I didn't want to. Even when it was happening I was disassociated, I was going through the motions and I was really only doing it almost like an investment cost that if I do this I'll be able to maybe enjoy sex later because I'm giving her the sex she wants now, so she'll see me again.

Speaker 1: 44:14

I want to interrupt to highlight something. So essentially, the sentence you just said is maybe if I give her sex right now, she will keep seeing me. Yeah, how many women listening can relate to that? How many women listening have said if I give him sex right now, maybe he will continue seeing me? I feel like every woman in the audience just fucking stood up and said what the fuck that's like? Exactly my history. So that's such a common, universal human experience. I think we try and use sex or relationships or money or resources Got. How many men listening can relate to that? If I buy her dinner, if I'm just nice to her, if I listen to her, if I'm a nice guy, if I do this, we do these behaviors often to try and get something Because we're hoping we'll get validation, love, attention, respect, understanding, and it's kind of a losing game, like, no like. At the end of the day, the person is gonna stick around if they want to and if they don't, they almost nothing you do will make them stick around.

Speaker 2: 45:07

So yeah big realization actually, one article which you say I really like was on you can't make people like you. I think that's what almost helped me rise. I can just have fun on these dates Because if it doesn't matter what I do anyways in terms of trying to make them like me, then I'm just gonna go and have fun and, first of all, the dates are way more fun. You're actually enjoying yourself and also you actually started to get some more standards to, because instead of just trying to sleep with everybody gonna date with cuz you feel like you need to cuz. It means something about you. You instead can see if you even like them to begin with. A good chance you probably don't like a lot of these people.

Speaker 1: 45:45

Dude, yeah, I listen to. You know, one of my favorite authors is byron katie. She did this like what she calls the work, sort of like a counseling session with this guy who had like nice guy syndrome, where he was just doing everything to try and make women like him and he would listen to women talk about like the bad boys that they were sleeping with in and dump all their relationship problems on him and he would just shut the fuck up and listen to it for like six months and, you know, be a good little puppy, like good boy. Who's a good boy listening and like all of this kind of stuff? And byron katie basically put it to him. She's like, do you even like these women? And he's like, well, you know they're very hot and like you know they're just the beautiful women, they're very attractive. And she's like You're sitting there complaining that they complain about bad boys. Are you just sitting here complaining to us about bad girls? Like are you doing the same thing that they're doing? And he was like no way, no. But like wait, wait. And she's like do you even like these women? Do you even like these women? And he'd never paused for half a second to ask himself if he actually liked them and what he was secretly hoping for was that they would just magically change or something. They would suddenly become like nice girls not that they mean or bad or anything, but, like you know, they take notice of him and stop complaining and stop dating bad boys and change.

Speaker 1: 46:57

And we often do that, don't we? We get so caught up in this like I don't even know if I like this person, but I'm so fucking desperate to get something from them, you know, to get attachment, to get validation, to get sex, to get a relationship, whatever. When it pause to actually say wait, why haven't like them? Like I asked, I don't know if I like them. They're almost like a vessel to give me the validation that I'm seeking. It's like I've never fucking even stopped to ask who they are. I just, I just want that fucking that validation. Give it to me. I literally don't give a fuck who you are. Just give me the validation I need. I'm so needy for I'm not even checking. If I want you will like you.

Speaker 2: 47:34

It's amazing how much we'll do because we have maybe some unconscious desires which, because we're not aware of them, how much they're driving us to do things and to like, tolerate stuff we don't actually like, because I'm sometimes surprised where, sometimes a few months later, I'm like wait, I don't even like this girl. But the reason I want to keep seeing her is because it makes me feel like I'm enough.

Speaker 1: 47:55

It makes me like I'm a good story. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:57

Yeah, and then it would hit me also like I don't actually like this person. What am I doing? And it's, it's interesting, it's, it's amazing. I think the beauty of having those realizations is then you get to learn about self love, self respect. One thing which I think is even helping me right now, because I'm currently going through this Is letting myself acknowledge that, ok, there's a part of me which does seek this validation, does want love from another person, which is funny that you can even get love from another person. It's kind of resented.

Speaker 2: 48:25

If I actually want to give myself self respect, I probably should notice the fact that I am seeking externally for this thing, but I actually might like myself in the process.

Speaker 2: 48:35

I don't feel good in the process, yeah, and if I want to give myself self respect, I'll actually let myself almost feel some of the things I'm afraid to feel.

Speaker 2: 48:44

I'm let myself feel the loneliness and lack of validation that I'm afraid of confronting.

Speaker 2: 48:49

And I almost realize there's actually more energy in that when I sometimes I think that when you are chasing someone to give you validation, you're almost looking for a way to numb yourself like as a substance of some kind, and we come back with like your balls drain so you're like more tired, but also like your emotions are typically satiated, like your your is a case template satiated. But what you really are missing in that is, if you let yourself sit for that pain, sit with the fear, you actually have a lot of energy from those emotions which you can use for other things, that you can use to actually get what you want to look for, what you're actually trying to look for, or even just like fully process and let go and now you at least you get to feel more peace and then do something you actually want to do. But I think a lot of this we do it because we're trying to avoid feeling what we feel and we just almost look for another places.

Speaker 1: 49:37

And we always go looking for in such a clumsy way and we're doing our best and you know you've gotten caught up in this. I've gotten caught up in this a million times. Like, let's say, you're wanting validation, validation which was something that you want it. That's why you were sleeping with all these women on the first day. You told us this in the coaching program. It's such a clumsy way of going about it. Getting validation from someone else. It seems like a rational way to do it. It seems like look, if I can just get enough people to tell me that I'm hot, or to tell me that I'm a good lover, or to tell me that I'm interesting or cool or whatever, if I could just get 10 people to tell it to me, then I would be satiated. I feel good. It's like what are you going to do the one time someone says you're not attractive? I'm sorry, I don't want to sleep with you. I'm sorry, I'm just not into what you're looking for. All of a sudden, that little house of cards that you've built, that flimsy validation temple that you've built, comes crashing down and you go fuck. One person didn't say that I'm hot. Okay, now I need to have 20 people tell me that I'm hot to balance out that one who didn't. So you go and seek it with 20 more people, but again one or two people would just say, hey look, you seem like a wonderful person, but I'm just, I'm not looking for what you're looking for and you'll tell a story of holy fuck, I'm not good enough.

Speaker 1: 50:52

And often when we go hunting from for validation or love or connection or whatever it might be from other people, we actually end up, through the process of hunting for it, getting the opposite of what we wanted, like we get Rejection and I don't believe in rejection. Nobody can reject you. You reject yourself. And then you say the other person did it. Know, you fucking rejected yourself, but Talk about that later. You get more rejection, or you get more nose, or you get more people saying hey look, I'm just not looking for that.

Speaker 1: 51:22

And so you start to build up this evidence, this database of all the people that said no to you, and you go fuck, I was actually more validated before I even went on this hunt for validation, like literally at least, when I was a virgin. I didn't know anybody didn't like me. I thought that there were people out there who didn't. You know I'm a virgin. Maybe lots of people don't like me. Now I have the fucking evidence that there are people that don't want to have sex with me. Holy shit, I'm in a worse position and that would just keep going on for perpetuity. That's why people perpetuity God I struggle to say that word sometimes that will go on for perpetuity when you would just you know, you see that, with billionaires who are like but I need 20 billion dollars and you get that, wow, I still feel shit.

Speaker 1: 51:59

There are still people who don't want to give me money. There are still people who don't care that I have money. There are still people that call me poor. I'm poor compared to Elon Musk and Jeff fucking Bezos. Maybe I need more money. Maybe I need more sex. Maybe I need my partner to give me more validation.

Speaker 1: 52:14

See that in relationships a lot where you could be the most loving partner of all time until your partner five times a day in my life I feel like this sometimes too. So we all slip into this where I tell her probably a hundred times a day that I love her, that I'm grateful for her, that I'm she's, I'm so glad she's in my life, but then the one time where she wants a little bit of validation from me. But I'm busy, I'm tired or I'm just fucking exhausted and I'm like, hey, like I love you, but I just I don't have anything to give. Today the story start creeping in a fight fuck, he doesn't love me or he doesn't love. He loves me, but not the way that I want, because we're seeking it from an external source and that won't always be the case. And so, you know, I've taught her and I've taught myself give yourself that validation, because that is a source that will always be available to you. But I might not be and other people might not be one of the girls that we're seeing right now, that we're dating. We've dated her for about a year.

Speaker 1: 53:06

She opened up to us the other night and she said you know, I'll be honest, sometimes I have a thought of like what if you guys get bored of me and you don't want to see me anymore? And I sent her a message we talked about at the time. But I sent her a message in a day or so afterwards and I said it wouldn't actually be a kindness for me to tell you that like no, we won't get bored of you. Like that's not kind Because you won't believe that I'd have to keep that up Every day for the rest of your life. I'd have to keep that up every day for the rest of your life, but even if I did that, you'd probably be like why does he keep saying it? If it was true, he wouldn't need to keep saying it. See what? Even fucking believe validation anyway, and we could have a whole separate discussion about that.

Speaker 1: 53:48

If you're trying to get validation from other people, even if they give it to you, the fact that you're constantly needing it and they keep giving it to you almost serves as evidence that something's wrong. Like fuck, like why do these people have to keep reassuring me? Fuck, maybe they don't actually believe it, maybe they're just saying it because I keep asking and they can tell I'm needy, like you. Just, you won't even fucking believe it. Anyway, your story is gonna changing to like yeah, because, because it's a losing game.

Speaker 2: 54:09

That's what I mean. You're never going to get validation from other people.

Speaker 1: 54:11

This is what Buddhists Are talking about, when they're so obsessed with the idea of which is funny, when they're set ready here's a joke when they're so attached to the idea of non attachment Every Buddhist out there is laughing. But but that's that's. That's why they obsess about non attachment. Where they talk about non attachment, that's why Stoics talk about don't go search, seeking things from external, the external world. It comes from within. That's why Byron Katie says look inside. That's why David Hawkins is let go of that whole game and just the answers are within you. That's why I say you know you have the answers inside you, not other people. But anyway, to circle back to the story, so what I said to the girl that we're seeing is it won't make you feel better if I tell you that, like we like you the most because I might change my mind anyway the most I can promise you is right now. We both like you and we're not bored of you. I don't think that'll change for the next week, but I can't guarantee you. We've seen you for a year now. So if we were gonna stop seeing you, maybe it would happen. But I can't tell you what will happen in the future. But what I can give you is a reminder to look inside yourself.

Speaker 1: 55:17

And so I said to her, right down the list of five reasons, it would be a good thing if we stopped seeing you. In other words, five reasons you would be okay, five reasons you don't need a validation, five reasons you're completely fucking detached, or as detached as you can be, from needing us to be there for you. And yes, you said, hey, thanks, that really helps. That's and that's what I try and give people in the coaching program is like detached from that neediness, from that external validation, from needing a certain outcome, from saying I'll be happy when I've had a threesome or I'll be happy when I've had 50 layers yes, we glamorize those things.

Speaker 1: 55:51

Obviously that's part of what this podcast here to is here to do. Hey, three sums of cool, I've had a threesome. That's amazing. But let go of the like story that you'll be unhappy if you don't have this thing Cause you want you'll be perfectly fucking fine. This is almost a nice bonus. Other people giving us validation is a nice little bonus, is beautiful, but if they don't fuck it, I'll give myself some validation, like I have the shit inside me. I have that love inside me. I've just never checked because of looking out there.

Speaker 2: 56:22

It's almost funny how true it is that you just never check because you never fucking asked yourself.

Speaker 1: 56:28

You never said wait do, I love myself, I love myself, wait do.

Speaker 2: 56:31

I don't know, is it even possible? Can I love myself? It's like you don't even know, like that's an option, and then, like you try it and then, when it works, you're like what the fuck I could get myself that I don't have to look outside, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 56:45

The really simple example here is let's say you had a bad day. The vast majority of people, when they've had a bad day, will go. I need my friend to make me feel better. I need women on tinder or guys on tinder to make me feel better. I need my family to make me feel better. I need my partner in a relationship to make me feel better. It's your job. It's your job to make me feel better, to cheer me up.

Speaker 1: 57:04

But most people haven't ever said wait, is it possible for me to cheer myself up? And there's a million different techniques you can do to do that, but is it possible that I could make myself feel better? What if I went and ran a bath and just set in the bath and just listen to some chill music? Would that make me feel better? You try and you like Wait, I had the power to cheer myself up. What the fuck? Or you listen to some happy music, or you watch a funny YouTube video, or you go outside and go for a nice walk and just smell the air and look at other people and smile at some people. You write a list of 10 things you're grateful for. You do these exercises. You stand in front of the mirror and say to yourself I love you in the mirror. See how that feels. You do these exercises, you feel better and you go. Holy shit, I have power inside me, yeah it was a whole time.

Speaker 2: 57:47

You just it's like, yeah, some people might do that, they'll start to feel good, but they're brain like, wait, no, but I'm mad about this thing. So they might even resist the fact they're feeling good Because they want it from someone else. It's like, yeah, I feel good, but I want from this still. So I'm gonna focus more on this instead.

Speaker 1: 58:06

Yeah, it's a strong story that we tell. We have these stories of like I need external things and if you let that go, it's almost like who would I be without that? Like who would I be? Everybody listening Think, maybe pause the podcast right now and think of something that you're very attached to, like maybe if you're a guy, you've told a story that you have to sleep with 20 women, and sleep with 20 women if you want to. But we're talking about a story that you're really attached to, that you think I have to do this thing right, won't be happy. I'm not allowed to be happy till I do this thing. I have to sleep with 20 women, or any women listening. I have to get a boyfriend. I have to find a man that loves me, I have to get a better job, whatever it might be something you're attached to and ask yourself who you would be if you didn't have that thing.

Speaker 1: 58:48

And for a lot of people when they go through that, like I can't even think about that. Like literally, that's just too painful or too scary. I know it can be painful, but kind of, push through and Do your best, even just for 10 seconds, to sit there and go. What would it be like if I never did this thing? Like, would I still be okay? You're basically saying can I be okay without this thing? And in my experience, my answer to every question I have ever done that on, even though I will argue with it and I'll say like, no, I fucking need this if I can just sit with it, and sometimes it takes months for me to be able to let it go. But every single thing I've ever done this with I go God, I don't want to give this thing up. And you resist a little bit, but you'll be like, fine, I would be okay with it, but I really want to be fine, I'd be okay with it. So, yeah, you would be okay with it. You just tell a story that you need it and, coming from that place of non-neediness, like when you can let it go, and say you know what, if I never have a threesome, I'll be okay. If I never get a boyfriend, fine, I'll be okay. If I never lose the weight, yeah, you know what? Fine, I'll be okay, like if you can let go of that shit. That is, funnily enough, a better place to then start working on the goal. Thank you, actually achieve the goal more now because you're not putting in all this fucking stress and fear. It's really hard to achieve a goal from a place of fear, stress, anxiety, pain, suffering. You just not motivated and you drive other people away.

Speaker 1: 1:00:16

Imagine, like we all know, the meme of like the clingy girlfriend of the clingy guy, who's like desperate, and they go on a date with someone like so, like, have you thought about marriage? And you're like Bitch, we just sat down at this fucking table. Like no, I haven't thought about marriage. Well, yes, I have, but I would need to date someone for a little while first. Okay, so like so you don't see you just a fuckboy? Are you like I'm? I'm a nice guy. Like no, I don't have had six with three people in my entire fucking life. But like whoa, you're being clingy as fuck. I don't know why, but I feel uncomfortable. I'm gonna leave like we drive away the thing that we're looking for when we needy and desperate and attached and we're not meaning to. We're trying our best, but it's just my experience that if I can be coming or starting from a place of relative peace, relative non neediness and outcome independence, I run a click at the thing more, or achieve the thing more, become the thing more and more easily.

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

You get more mental space and clarity and ability to think when you're not so attached to it. It's funny how many things you actually miss when you're so focused on the thing that you're attached to that you almost don't see what's happening in front of you and you don't work with it in front of you it's almost like you're thinking too far ahead that you're not seeing. Oh, I'm calm of this, I can do, and I'll do what I can right now.

Speaker 1: 1:01:33

Yeah, a person who's terrified or anxious or needy or desperate to achieve a goal. It's very hard to think rationally. Like, think about this. If you're in the middle of a crisis, who would you prefer to be leading? Like, who would you prefer to be in charge in a crisis? The person who's fucking terrified and shooting their pants and needy and attached and scared? Or the person who's calm and peaceful and like, yeah, if we all died, that's okay, let's just do our best to get out of here. Guys. Like, step one, let's do this thing over here. Or do you want the person going, oh, my god, we're gonna fucking die. We're gonna die, we're gonna die.

Speaker 1: 1:02:07

It's like I don't want that person in charge, but often we put that person in charge in our own life. We go, okay, let's my fucking fear and my terror and my anxiety and my neediness and my guilt and my shame. That's gonna run the show. That's what's gonna be getting me the girlfriend or the boyfriend that I want, all the money that I want or all the clients. It's like that's not the person that we want in charge running the show. That's the person who's freaking the fuck out and can't think logically and can't come up with a good decision and will terrify everybody who comes into their life and scare half of them off. And again, we're doing our best when we do that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

You were doing your best when you were very attached to your story and like needy for women to have sex with you. But you know, as part of what we got you to do in the coaching program, I was like literally like what bad thing happens if you don't have sex on the first date, and I think you just hadn't stepped back for long enough to say, wait, do I have to have sex on the first date? Can I just go on a date and we don't have sex and that's okay? And you did that right. Like you had a couple of days you didn't have sex on the first date and what was that like?

Speaker 2: 1:03:09

And it was actually fun. I remember putting a post to that. I think I. My word for the post was it's been such a gift not having sex on the first date, because it actually showed me that I'm enough as a person to actually make a connection with somebody, to be enjoyable, to be around, have fun with somebody, and I don't actually need the sex part to be good enough. And also it was a sober date, to which there's another crutch as well was, I think, that I had to go to a bar. I only ever got one drink, but still I felt like if it's not for that one drink I won't be able to relax enough to be charming and all these things. But no sober dates, no sex on the first date, and it actually felt good. It actually almost freed me in a way from this idea that I had to do it and I actually enjoyed the woman I was seeing because of it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:04

Yeah man, I fucking love that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:07

So I actually have a story that it happened after coaching.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

But it was really powerful because it almost reminded me of some of the self-loved stuff I did during coaching and I was essentially feeling a sort of limerence for one of the girls I'm seeing and I really wanted to feel love and affection from her.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

I noticed I was in a cycle where I'm almost going from girl to girl and they become a secure base for me to get love and affection from and when that ends it's like I lose that secure base and I go in a bit of a spiral because I was not getting it for myself. It keeps like just changing. It's like the object I'm getting love from changes each time and I realized I was in that cycle and that in this moment when I was feeling the sadness of really wanting it and she was at this time unavailable to give it to me, I noticed that my attention was super external. Like I noticed in myself, I have this yearning for love and to feel loved, to feel special, to feel good enough, and I noticed when I felt in that yearning that my attention was looking so outwards. It's like I could feel my mind searching for love outside of myself.

Speaker 1: 1:05:13

Just trying to find someone that you can project onto.

Speaker 2: 1:05:16

It almost doesn't matter who, yeah exactly Like it just wanted, it wanted from somewhere. And when I noticed that, I kind of first acknowledged myself and I had this amazing insight that, you know, I'm someone who is capable of giving affection and love to other people. I've been in situations where I've given love and affection to other people and they felt that for me. So if I'm this human being who's capable of giving love to other people, maybe I can give it to myself as well. Maybe I can take, because part of not me not looking to myself for self love is me not recognizing that I'm a human being, I'm a person who's capable of giving, but I can just give it to myself instead. And in that moment I decided to ask myself, like what is it that I want? If I were to, if I were to get what I wanted, if I were to go to the person I want love from, what is it that I'm looking for from them that I'm trying to get? And what I realized was it essentially was this warm, loving place to experience myself as I am right now, in that warm. And I kind of felt into that and said can I give myself that own feeling of warmth? And then the sadness I'm feeling right now, let myself feel sad. In this warm feeling that I give myself and I tried that I gave myself this feeling of warmth, of this love, of an acceptance I started telling myself, well, I feel in that way that I love you, I'll be, I accept you and that I think you're enough, and all these other affirmations that, like I am loved, I was and I was talking from me, by the way, as in a, it's kind of like you can talk from different places. It's like you feel into yourself and I'm like from myself. Let me tell myself I love myself and I was able to create this warm space, which then, when I created that warm space, the sadness I was feeling. I was like let me let myself just feel that sadness in this warm space I created. And then it fucking worked and I was like I actually feel like I'm fully accepting what I'm experiencing right now. I was even telling myself I'll be accepting you as you are right now, whatever you're going through at this moment, I fully accept it and I fully love it and I'm completely okay with however you want to be at this moment. And I was letting myself fully experience what I was experiencing.

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

But now the safe space I created, where no longer did I need to look for an external space so I could feel what I wanted to feel. I was able to do it within myself and I was almost. It still felt very intense, I still felt the sadness. It's not like it goes away immediately, but now I had a place where I could actually accept it and let myself experience it and I was just so surprised at just what, how easy it was actually like when I looked to myself to do it, and also that I was even able to do it to begin with, because I've done it before in the coaching.

Speaker 2: 1:07:58

I did it a lot because how many times like you guys could almost help redirect me to like, hey, look for myself for it. But in a way, it's almost like I remembered yeah, I have this ability, I can do this and yeah, it was pretty crazy to experience. And as it was happening, a friend actually ended up calling me and asking and checking in if I was okay and I told him what just happened and it was amazing. It was almost like the moment I didn't need it anymore. It came to me. But regardless, I still very much appreciated him for calling and I was just surprised it happened.

Speaker 1: 1:08:34

Yeah, it's funny how we often like especially acceptance. We want other people to accept this. I mean, god, that's like every feminist ever, every I don't know what's another every black rights activist ever, every one in the male side of things, like the red pill in men's rights activists. We're saying, like we want other people to accept this, and it's like do you accept yourself? And people's usual answer to that is yes, I do. It's like do you really, though? Like, do you really accept yourself or do you have negative thoughts in your head about yourself? If you do, well, that's not acceptance. Do you have self? Do you have loving thoughts about yourself in your head? No, well, that's not acceptance. You're asking other people to do the thing that you're not willing to do yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:09:18

Isn't that a little hypocritical, or maybe a gentle way of saying that is, if you're sitting around waiting for the rest of the world to give you that thing, why don't you just go first, and then maybe they can follow in your footsteps. Maybe they'll see how self loving you are, how accepting you are of yourself, how non-judgmental you are of yourself, and they'll go wow, this person's pretty self loving. Maybe I can love them too. But it's a little more of a challenge. It's not impossible, but it's more of a challenge to love someone who doesn't like themselves Cause, like you think well, they're not fucking doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:09:51

Why should I do it? Especially if they then come at you with a needy energy of like, please love me, please accept me. I need you to love me. I'm gonna force you to love me. It's like motherfucker, you're not even doing it. Why would I do it? So go first, be the first one, be the change you wanna see in the world. As Gandhi sort of said, If you want the rest of the world to accept you and love you, why don't you just do it first, and then you might actually find wait, I don't even need them to anymore. What do I get? Can I ask you a?

Speaker 2: 1:10:18

question on that? Actually, yeah, Because sometimes what I wonder is at times where I may be not able to give myself, or I'm having a hard time giving myself the love and the warmth that I want, and I do feel needy. In fact, maybe I feel so needy that I almost feel desperate for validation to know that I'm enough from somebody else. Do you think it is a good idea or okay to ask somebody and I know maybe that's a question I can answer myself whether it's okay or not but I guess do you ever ask somebody like do you ever feel that almost like crippling neediness and feeling of not being enough? And in those moments have you ever asked, maybe Imogen or a friend, to let you know that you're okay and that you're good enough?

Speaker 1: 1:11:05

Fuck, no, no, I'm perfect with all of these concepts. I'm perfect with everything I coach. For anyone who can't tell that that was a joke, yeah, yeah of course, but my mission was never to be perfect with this shit. My mission was never to be a perfect little Buddhist monk who's reached enlightenment and I sit at the top of the hierarchy above everyone else and I'm like Namaste motherfuckers, like I've got my shit together, like no, that was never my mission. I'm working towards like more of that over time. But my goal is to just seek validation a little bit less from other people over time. Try and give it to myself a little bit more. Remember that I've been working on this shit for the better part of like I don't know Depends on where we wanna say. The starting point is but 10 years maybe, and really hardcore working on this for the last two years, every day, like hours a day, and I'm not perfect with it and I don't know that I ever will be. I don't know that I ever want to be Just trying to be a little bit better over time. Progress, not perfection. So, yeah, seek validation sometimes and to be clear to everybody else listening, I don't think RV and I'm certainly not. I don't think we're saying that it's wrong to seek validation or you're a bad person or because that's not very self loving or accepting to say, like, fuck, I'm not doing acceptance and love very well. I'm getting validation. What the fuck is wrong with me? It's like it's okay. You're human being. You have probably spent the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years seeking validation from other people. It's a big habit that you've built. You might not be very good at getting validation or love from yourself. You might be very clumsy with that shit. That's perfectly okay. You do when you're best. So, yeah, I sometimes seek validation from other people. I actually, funnily enough, this is beautiful timing. Let's see if I still have it here. Yeah, I do. I am going to. I've already written the notes for it. I just have to sit down and record it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:02

I'm gonna do a video about the neediness and validation that I get from you, from everybody listening, from my audience and my clients, and so I wrote a list of like 10 or 15 things that I try and get validation from. So I need you to like me. I need you all to think that I'm smart. I need you all to think that I'm a kind person that I'm empathetic and loving. I need you all to like and subscribe. I need you all to give me money so that I can pay the bills. That's a big one that I have a lot of attachment to. I need you to change your life so that I can feel good about having helped myself, having helped you. Sorry, I need you to listen to my advice. I need you to watch my channel. I need you to tell me that you're grateful for me. I need you to.

Speaker 1: 1:13:40

Yeah, I've got like 20 or so of these and so, yeah, I do that too, but I'm just trying to let go of those things a little more over time, or it's even. It's more just noticing them and seeing how they sort of color your actions or change your actions. You know, maybe you're a little bit forceful sometimes. Maybe you're coming from a little bit of a needy place with someone. Maybe someone says no to you and you go oh, please, like, but please. And then you go wait, that's not very non-attached of me. Okay, I'll try and let go a little bit. So it's progress, it's not perfection, but yeah, I love that question, by the way, that's a great fucking question. And then you go thanks, oh, I feel good. Thank you for the validation. Oh, my question was so great. Oh my God.

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

My heart might have thirt a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:14:27

And that's okay. Like mate, that's the point Like Imogen is literally going through this right now. She had a big epiphany a couple of days ago where she said, cause she was wearing this dress, that even I thought like that's a fucking amazing dress. And she said to me we're at a cafe. She said you know, yesterday I wore this dress and I had five strangers throughout the day tell me that they loved my dress.

Speaker 1: 1:14:51

And I realized that today, when I'm going out in a different dress, nobody's really complimenting me on this dress, this new dress, and I almost feel like I'm missing out, like I'm missing that validation that I got yesterday with the clothes yesterday, and I feel this pressure to dress like I did yesterday. I mean, god, how many women listening can relate to this? Guys too. Or it's like I gotta wear makeup, I gotta be pretty, I gotta do all this shit, I gotta perform. You know, guys, I gotta perform, I gotta be interesting, gotta be cool, gotta be sexy, gotta be this, because I won't get the validation if I'm not. And so she had the big epiphany of like I think I actually wanna stop getting compliments as well, or stop accepting the compliments, like internalizing them, and this is something that I've practiced myself over the last like year or so, where anytime someone gives me a compliment or says I'm grateful for you, or thank you, or Andy, you've changed my life, I try not to attach to that. Like I hear it, I listen to it, but I try and think about what they're actually saying rather than make it all about me. So if they say, andy, thank you so much, you helped me change my life, I will in my head flip it around and go, wow, they've changed their life, I love that. And so I'll say something like that to them. I say, man, I love that you've changed your life, that's beautiful. Tell me what you've done. Or I love that you're expressive with your gratitude and that you've said you're grateful to me, that you've said you're grateful to other people, that's beautiful, that's wonderful, I love that. And so I'll kind of flip it around and not internalize it so much. Because, yeah, I myself attach to the validation and start chasing it.

Speaker 1: 1:16:21

And, to be clear, with all of these concepts, people are gonna sort of misinterpret this and go, oh, so I should never be accepting of gratitude. And if someone says they're grateful, I should be like fuck you bitch, like don't fucking no. Accept the gratitude if you want to. Accept the validation if you want to. These are just concepts that I'm playing around within your exploring to, and I'm trying to attach to gratitude and validation. Really it's validation. I'm trying to attach to validation and need it a little bit less. So that was a terrible sentence. I'm trying to attach to validation a little less and need it a little less. That's what I meant to say and that's just a fun exploration. So I don't think you need to be perfect with this. Maybe you do, I don't know, but I'm too stupid to know that. But from my point of view, I don't want to be perfect with this shit. That was never the goal.

Speaker 2: 1:17:09

It's interesting because something I've heard from people who seem to be very good at not letting anything affect them. They seem to not take any of the negative comments in, but also the positive ones too, where it all seems to be neutral to them. So it was interesting here you talk about that because I always wondered how that worked. But it sounds like it's that it's just like not internalizing anything and not necessarily being cold, it's just more realizing that everything that anyone's saying is just really them and it doesn't actually necessarily mean anything about you.

Speaker 1: 1:17:40

They don't know me.

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

Like if someone comes up to me and says, andy, you're a wonderful person, you don't fucking know me, and I don't mean that in a mean way, but like you don't fucking know me. Anyone who might leave a YouTube comment and say, andy, you're amazing, your content's changed my life. You don't know me, You've spent zero seconds with me. You don't know me. You tell a story that I'm interesting or that I'm cool or I'm amazing or whatever, until the one day where I don't do that thing. And then, all of a sudden, you tell a story of oh, he's changed. No, I haven't changed at all. You just one minute you said a story that I was interesting and cool. Then you say, oh, he's changed this content. I've had people listening might even go fuck, that's been me. I've had people that have left comments for fucking months or years. I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. And then, andy, now this video really missed the mark. Man, not good, not good. Man, I can't believe you've done this. It's like I didn't fucking change. You just told a different story about me. One minute I was the hero and everything you wanted me to be, and then, all of a sudden. I wasn't because you didn't like me talking about this topic, or you didn't gel with it, or you think that I shouldn't have talked about it. And so the same thing happens constantly.

Speaker 1: 1:18:53

We do this, even with people that we've been married to for 50 years. You tell a story of how they are ambitious, they're cool, they're interesting, they're beautiful, they're pretty, they're hot, they're sexy, they're masculine, they're feminine, but then the one time that they're not, that you say no, they're not feminine. Now I'm pissed off at them. So you haven't met them, you don't fucking know them. All we're ever really doing when we meet people or when we talk to people is we're telling a story, we're interpreting. Carl Jung talked about this, psychologists talk about this. We're just projecting. We're projecting our interpretation of that person, our storytelling of that person.

Speaker 1: 1:19:24

Like I don't know you, avi, I don't know you at all. Even if I spent the rest of my life with you, I'm not in your brain, I don't walk your life, I don't know what it feels like to be you. I can't know that. You can try and tell me, you can try and bridge that gap and I can relate to that. But even when you tell me something. If you literally say I was really scared to have a threesome because I was so nervous, all I can ever do is go. Okay, let me think about times when I was nervous. Let me imagine how Avi might have felt, based on my own experiences. But the way you feel nervous is going to be different to the way I feel nervous. All I'm ever trying to do is trying to like, patent, recognize and maybe match up my past experiences with your telling of this experience.

Speaker 1: 1:20:10

There's so much lost in a telling and the bits that get lost there's a word for that it's qualia. Qualia means like the experiences that are kind of felt. We can't, really we can't say them Like anyone listening. If I say to you what is the color red? Like, how can you explain to me what the color red is? All you can do is say, well, it looks sort of like orange and not yellow. And you can tell me some shit, that's red, but like it's really hard to explain what the fucking color red is. It's just red.

Speaker 1: 1:20:40

If I say to you what is love, you're like, fuck me, that's an even harder one to explain. You can go well, I guess God, my heart feels good when I feel love. You can tell me some things that you do when you're in love. You can tell me the actions that you take. You can tell me how your body feels. But like, I can't experience love the way you feel love, because I've never fucking been you. So all of that, to bring it back to the original point, when somebody says you're wonderful, you're great, you're beautiful, they're just telling me their story. And another way to think about that is the very person who's next to them might say no, that person lied, you're not beautiful, you're ugly.

Speaker 1: 1:21:16

And so if two people can have such a radically different opinion of me, or what I'm doing, or my actions or my mind or anything else, if they can have such a radically just, complete, 180 different opinion, was there ever really any objective truth there about me in the first place? Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, I don't fucking know. But like I try not to take that shit personally. Like the good and the bad, I'm very grateful and it's wonderful and I love it and I find it amazing that we can live in a world where we can be kind to each other and say compliments and stuff like that, but I don't tell a story about what it means about me. So I'm grateful. It's almost like you're detaching. I'm grateful for it, and I will say that sometimes or most of the time hey, that's beautiful, I'm grateful for that, that's nice of you, but I don't go.

Speaker 1: 1:22:03

Yeah, I'm a good person. Yeah, I don't use it to fuel my ego I guess is what I'm saying or my identity, because the second someone doesn't give me that validation. I'm fucked. It's stoicism, essentially, or Buddhism, but stoicism maybe makes more sense here. It's I have my own internal view of who I am and that doesn't change, as best as I can, you know. But I try not to let that change.

Speaker 1: 1:22:28

And other people, whatever they might say about me, good or bad, this doesn't change. I don't change. So I'm not desperate for like, oh, please tell me that I'm interesting or cool or charming or funny. I really don't give a fuck what you think. Like, I believe those things about me, and you can think I'm great or shit, but I at least like myself, cause at the end of the day, I'm the one that lays my head down on the pillow and has to be okay with what I did that day, who I was, all of that kind of stuff I'm the one that looks into the mirror and looks into my own eyes. Other people don't. They come and go like I will always be here.

Speaker 1: 1:23:00

What I think about myself matters the most. And to circle back to something we said earlier in the podcast, most people have never checked with themselves to see, like wait, what do I actually think about myself? Do I even like myself? Is there even a person there without the external world, like like? Do I even know what my principles are? Do I even know what the word principles even means? Like? Do I even know? Like what doesn't change about me, what is independent on the external world? And I think most people haven't really gone there and that can be terrifying the first few times. But it's a fun, interesting, very useful experience to say who am I without everybody else, like, who actually am I? What do I want? That's another question that we ask a lot in the coaching body.

Speaker 2: 1:23:40

There's a lot of layers to that too, Like one thing I like to think about in terms of looking for external validation, which I feel like I'm realizing more and more, is like, essentially, like you're building up your identity based on something very fragile that can change very frequently, because there's no-.

Speaker 1: 1:23:55

The outside world changes every single fucking second. People are so emotional Like the person that loves you the next day will say I hate you Cause they're yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:24:07

And it almost makes me think what we were saying earlier about. Like you know, you look for validation when dating, but other people like finding you attractive. I like the way you put it. It's fragile house of cards you're building, Because the house of cards exist outside of you and anyone can knock it down wherever they want and your identity is built off that there's no stability. It's like it's only stable as long as everything in the world works perfectly the way you need it to, at all times, and the moment doesn't which, why would it ever?

Speaker 2: 1:24:31

Yeah, and also I feel like there's like an interesting depth with even the idea of having an internal identity and like asking yourself what am I, who am I? And seeing how many of the elements that you consider you are are also something which is external to what you actually are. You know what I mean it's like and it goes into the whole like non-dealism thing and the idea that what actually are you Like? Are you your body? Well, your body can change. You can lose your looks, you can lose your arm, you can lose your hair. So I guess it already happened for you, but I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 1:25:00

Ha ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ha.

Speaker 2: 1:25:02

It's okay, man, I would appreciate that, but I'm trying to internalize it, so yeah to circle back to that point.

Speaker 1: 1:25:09

Yeah, you say what are you If you tell stories? We often tell stories about ourselves too. I'm attractive and hot. Okay, what happens when you're 80? Shit, I'm gonna be fucked. And then you live your life in fear of that.

Speaker 1: 1:25:21

So even the stories that you tell about yourself it's not that we're saying don't tell those stories, but like understand that you're telling a story and that it might not always be true. Even the story of I am, like I exist, it's like, well, do you know that? What happens when you die? I don't know what happens when I die. So even the story of I am I'm just me, it's like, well, what about when you're not you? What about when you die? And these are very like esoteric kind of out there conversations which I know you're completely open to and I am too, and I like having these conversations and I definitely will have more of them on the channel.

Speaker 1: 1:25:54

But if none of this resonates with you, just sort of notice the thoughts that you're having about yourself, like I'm strong and I'm hyper-masculine. Well, what are you gonna do when you're sick and you're just blubbering like a little baby? Is that okay? Would that be okay? And so it's not about like removing these stories of yourself. You're not allowed to be masculine. No, that's not what we're saying. We're sort of saying, be okay with not being that thing as well. That's what we mean when we say non-attachment or outcome independence. Yeah, I'm hyper-masculine and I love being hyper-masculine. It's fucking beautiful. But if I ever wasn't, that's fine, I'll be okay. Ironically, that is like quite masculine.

Speaker 2: 1:26:32

Anyone who wants to explore the topic more too? Yeah, and I'll just say this like, just notice, in everything you do and every situation, every memory, there's gonna be a constant that you'll notice, and I guess I'll just leave it at that. Just notice what's there every single time, and then you can introspect and do inquiry on that. Unlike what is that? What am I?

Speaker 1: 1:26:57

A book that really helps with this is called the Greatest Secret by Rhonda Byrne. Just read that book. If anyone is interested in what we're talking about here, read that book. And the shortcut, or the secret of that book, the greatest secret of that book is essentially you're not really your body. It's gonna sound very esoteric to people who haven't explored these concepts, but some of the people will be up for this. You're not your body. You're not even really your thoughts. You're not your mind. You're like something that sits above that, that notices all of that. There you go. If you're interested in more of that, read the Greatest Secret, but there's plenty of other books that talk about this.

Speaker 2: 1:27:34

This is a concept that's been explored since the dawn of time, I think the book of undoing, some Jen McKenna stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:27:38

Buddhism, enlightenment, everything by David Hawkins, everything by Byron Katie, all of these concepts. Byron Katie actually has a book, I think, specifically on the topic A Mind at Home with Itself, or who Would you Be Without your Story? She talks about it in both of those.

Speaker 2: 1:27:52

Okay, Bernay Brown, I think she was another one. Yeah, she talks about this a lot At Katolle.

Speaker 1: 1:27:58

This is an old concept but for a lot of people they'll hear all this and go like what the fuck are you talking about? You can kind of do a fun little exercise when do your thoughts come from, like everyone listening say where do my thoughts come from? Yeah, well, I'm thinking those thoughts. Oh, really, really, do you choose to have a thought? Do you preface your thoughts with the thought of I should have a thought? No, and anyone who's creative understands this completely, because I can ask this question when do your ideas come from? Where do your creative inspirations come from? And people just go, I don't fucking know. I'm just like walking down the street and, bam, I should paint this. Or comedians understand this. One of my favorite comedians was a guy called Norm MacDonald and he used to make his assistant ask this.

Speaker 1: 1:28:46

So Norm MacDonald, on this show he and his assistant would interview like famous comedians, like every famous comedian that you could imagine, and Norm MacDonald used to make his assistant ask this question because it used to drive all the comedians fucking mad. And he would say where do you get your ideas from? Where do your jokes come from? And some of them would get fucking mad because they're like, fuck you, I don't fucking know where my jokes come from. I'm not choosing to like I might sit there and refine them, like someone like Seinfeld does that a lot, but I don't choose to have the fucking jokes. I just put myself there and through, like divine intervention or some shit, the thought just manifests and comes into my fucking brain. So everybody listening kind of ask yourself do I choose to think my thoughts or do they just kind of come into my fucking head?

Speaker 2: 1:29:28

Ask yourself can you tell what your next thought's going to be? Do, or it happens that's a good one.

Speaker 1: 1:29:32

Yeah, the answer is like no, it's just fucking that. Can you? Can you mind read yourself in the future? If there was some control over that, you think you would be able to. You're able to focus on things. You're able to think like I'm going to think about this webcam right now, but then you start thinking I'm hungry. Fuck, I didn't mean to think that.

Speaker 1: 1:29:50

Everybody who's attempted meditation understands this quite well, because they sit there and go let me just focus on one thing. And then all these thoughts just start coming in to distract you and you're like well, I'm not choosing In fact I'm trying not to have those thoughts and they just come in. And so all of these concepts again, they're sort of a little esoteric if you're hearing this for the first time. But you're not your thoughts, you're something above that. You're not your body, you're not your mind, you're something that seems to notice all of those things. It's like pure consciousness, if you want to call it that, or you could call it. In psychology they call it the observer. Like you're observing all of that stuff, you're noticing that stuff and so realizing that can help you detach a little bit from the thoughts. So stop beating yourself up. Here's something that comes up a lot in my coaching program, when someone will beat themselves up for their negative thoughts and then I'll say did you choose to have that negative thought about yourself? And they'll go well, no, you say, why are you beating yourself up for it? You didn't choose to have a negative thought, to think like I'm a fat piece of shit. You didn't say, hey, let me have the thought I'm a fat piece of shit. You didn't want to think that you're a fat piece of shit. The thought just kind of appeared because that's what thoughts seem to do. So detach from it a little bit. It can also help you not take your thoughts so seriously.

Speaker 1: 1:31:07

A lot of people take their thoughts so seriously. They're like I'm fat and they go yep, it's true, I'm fat, because that thought's in my head and it's like but is it true? Do you have to believe that you're fat? What if you didn't believe your fat? What if you believe that you just have a couple of kilograms that you'd like to lose? You don't have to say anything about who you are as a person. You don't have to be like I'm a fat piece of shit. What if you don't have to even believe the negative thoughts. So yeah, again, these are sort of esoteric conversations but they are, when you can get to this point, unbelievably fucking helpful, because you don't take your own thoughts so seriously.

Speaker 1: 1:31:40

You don't get bogged down. And weighed down, you're just like ah, there's a negative thought in my head, cool. Rather than oh my God, why am I being negative, oh my God, fuck, I'm a bad person, fuck, what do I do about this, you just say oh, negative thoughts in my head, because they're often in my head, cool.

Speaker 2: 1:31:54

It's actually almost like a superpower you can get from it, and I actually almost want to tie this to something you taught me during coaching that you teach all your clients and that's the 50 things you like about yourself exercise. I think if you were to do some of the stuff where you realize that you get a point where you can see your thoughts and just not believe them almost by default, realize that you don't actually have to believe them, it becomes a lot easier to change your beliefs about yourself and your identity. Because remember when you gave me the 20 reasons why I'm attractive exercise.

Speaker 1: 1:32:24

Yeah, you wrote for context. You didn't believe you're attractive. So I was like well, right, 20 reasons why you are, let's see. Let's see if you're attractive or not, or if we could tell the story that you're attractive.

Speaker 2: 1:32:34

And I believe that very quickly. And part of the reason I believe that quickly was because I already have a level of detachment from my thoughts and my beliefs about myself. It feels fluid, and it only feels fluid because I don't actually inherently assume that what I'm thinking is true, and because of that I was able to do the exercise that Andy taught me to tell myself that I'm attractive. And I actually was able to believe it pretty quickly Because on some level I noticed the thoughts of me that didn't want to believe it.

Speaker 2: 1:33:04

I noticed the thoughts of me that didn't believe and believe something else. But I was also like I could also just choose to believe it, like I'm giving myself evidence right now which seems to be sufficient for my brain to like be able to buy into it, and then I can just lean into that feeling and lean into all the evidence that I am attractive and actually like let myself buy into it. So I do think that it actually is almost like there's a benefit to doing that stuff, even just for the sake of making yourself like change your beliefs about yourself, which you know will, if your goal is getting laid, will help you. That exercise was great, by the way. I'm really happy that you told me to do that. I still believe it, by the way, like after doing it, and I still like, and I have so many more examples now that help me show it to including you are going to really, really, really assume, like the video course that I'm coming up with, that I'm halfway through finished actually I'm almost finished at probably about the next month.

Speaker 1: 1:34:03

This is like one chapter in a video course that I'm doing everything is a story and you're in control of the stories that you tell. You know this line here I say if we're in control of the stories that we tell about our lives, in other words, if we're in control of the way we view our own lives, you know if something's good or bad, or I'm a good person or I'm a bad person. If you're in control of that, if we're the author holding the pen, wouldn't we want to tell the stories that actually serve us? You can kind of think of it like this Maybe you are fat and unattractive, or maybe you're a beautiful person. Either of those could be true. Like it depends on the you know, beauties in the eye of the beholder. One person might look at you and say that you're the most attractive person on the planet. Someone else might look at you and say, like no, that woman or that man is ugly. So both can be true, both can be false. They're just fucking ways of interpreting reality. But don't? We want to pick the story that serves us best. Do you feel good about yourself when you believe I'm a fat, ugly piece of shit that no one's ever going to love? Does that bring you closer to the thing that you want, which might be like love or someone else, or a relationship or sex, or you know, liking yourself probably not Probably moves you further away from that. But if you believe no, you know what. I am beautiful and I'm just going to work on myself and become a little bit more beautiful and lose some weight and throw myself in a self improvement and, you know, put myself out there and start dating and, yeah, like that serves you, like hell, because now you feel really good, now you feel motivated, now there isn't an extra problem to fix. You know, I'm not broken, I don't need to be fixed. I'm just going to lose a little bit of weight, like that's it. That's far easier to do than, oh my God. I have to fix the problem that I'm an ugly, fat piece of shit. And how will I? Even who would even date an ugly, fat piece of shit like me? Like that's never going to happen, like it's hopeless. It feels unbelievably difficult to climb that mountain as opposed to just no, I'm okay and I'll just improve myself a little bit. So one more thing I do want to talk about you.

Speaker 1: 1:35:53

In your time in the coaching program started during business. Essentially you made 34 YouTube videos like helping other people and doing that sort of content. I liked what you wrote in your final post in the group, like when you just finished up. You said, like in the past when you were young, when you were like 17 or 18. You had made money and you were making like five figures a month. But along the way, because you hadn't done that for a long time, you sort of like lost the belief or, I guess, the hope that you could ever do that again. And in your time in the coaching, just doing this sort of content and helping people in your channel, you've started to believe that it's possible again and that you know you can surpass that five figures a month. So how has that been?

Speaker 2: 1:36:33

I think that's probably one of the most valuable insights that I got, because there seems to be a thing and in general for a lot of people, where when you get good at something and you maybe get offered for a while and you go back into it, it can be harder to re get into it because now you're also fighting a bit with your ego, which wants to be the certain level, but it's not anymore, and you have to re-learn from the beginner steps which you don't want to have to do yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:36:57

You have the memory of how high you climbed up that mountain and now, every step that you're at right now, you're like, fuck, this isn't when I was at the peak. This isn't when I was at the peak, this isn't when I was at the peak and it's like, yeah, man, that was like 20 years ago. They come the fuck down and do the journey again. You'll get there quick enough anyway, like you do, you get them far quicker than the first time you did it, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 1:37:18

Yeah, yeah, because exactly you get, you'll get there quicker. But there's also this and then. But I think what underlies it is a sphere of what if you don't? What if you can't? Because that's what I felt was um, what if I can't do it again?

Speaker 2: 1:37:30

Truthfully, I probably could jump in the business I was doing back then again, but I have a lot of emotional barriers which makes it hard for me to do so, which I could overcome. But I that make me not want to do it, because I'm secretly afraid what if I can't do it again? What if I can't get to that amount again? And that's part of the reason why I'm choosing a different vehicle this time as a business, also because it's also more exciting than me and I had other insights at the time which made me want to switch it anyways. But who knows me, let's just cope. But I do have an interest in the thing that I'm doing more now. But, yeah, I'd reconnect with the belief that I actually can do it almost actually dismantling the story of it that I feel like I'm someone who lost that fire and can't do it is useful because it felt like, okay, cool night, I can do it, I actually can make this.

Speaker 2: 1:38:15

Actually, one thing I really like that you said was that, um, you'll make way more money, like, like hundreds of times, and more money than you even believe or think that you will. And that was very motivated to read, because on some level, I just kind of believed you. Because, again, the whole thing of like other touch my thoughts. Yeah, fuck, you're saying this. I like that. We, I'm just going to adopt it because, fuck it, it's helpful.

Speaker 2: 1:38:37

It gave me energy to actually work on things and then, when I'm working on things you can, it's like you're taking steps on the path. You can actually see how that path can lead you to a future. Because now I'm like okay, I see, if I keep doing this, if I get very good at this, there are ways to make money from this, and I've seen other ways people make money from this, so it is possible. It's more just a matter of doing it. It's just a more matter of just staying on the path and walking it, so, which I do have more intention to actually keep doing. So you join the group which will help with that.

Speaker 1: 1:39:09

Yeah, the accountability group with some of the other, like people from the coaching program that have sort of made their own.

Speaker 2: 1:39:15

Can I actually just say a note on that in general. You know, one of the biggest reasons I joined the coaching was because I wanted access to the group. I wanted to be in a group with people who also had to pay money to get in there, who were pre vetted and also had a supportive community for the goals that everyone's working on, because I feel like that on its own is extremely valuable. Just meeting like a lot of the people that I have met so far has made everything easier. Like, let's say, hypothetically, I didn't even do the coaching with you, which already is like from we talked about has been really valuable, but just got the group. That in itself has been extremely valuable.

Speaker 2: 1:39:52

Having people because first of all like like cams in there and he like will like talk about stuff. Ed's there, taylor's there, a bunch of other people is there too, so you're already getting help from people just from being in there. And then it's just the fact that since people are posting their progress and what they do, I you can learn from everything. Also, just a shout out to Ed if you want to learn so much like advanced shit, like way past Andy's guide, unlike the Tinder stuff just look at his log. There's so much valuable stuff in there, so much like new stuff in there too, that I'll just look through his log.

Speaker 2: 1:40:29

Sometimes I'll control F in the discord looking for maybe some specific information. It's always something as long as it'll come up and I'll just copy that and then put it into my my game, my Tinder stuff and everything. The group's really useful and I'm happy that exists. I'm happy that I was even able to be in like the thing that came in about me to like part of Robby's group and stuff for the coaching stuff and the content creation thing, because it's just cool being in that. I feel like groups help. I feel like having a community helps.

Speaker 1: 1:40:55

It's a big part of the coaching. So for a long time I just did one on one coaching and I had no group coaching component as part of it at all. And people just achieve like 10,000 times more when they're with the other coaching clients. And you know, in the case of accountability group members only section, whatever you want to call it we have that on discord. That's what we're referring to when we say discord. But like having that as a lifetime thing that people can just be in, literally, people will achieve 10,000 times more than when I was just trying to coach them entirely on my own, because there's something nice about seeing other people go through the same struggles that you're going through. Plus you get to have like 100 other people giving you advice.

Speaker 1: 1:41:35

I'm just one person. I might give the best advice in the world I don't. But like, even if I did, I'm still just one person. It doesn't mean as much as hearing the same thing from 10 people or 10 people giving slightly different answers or different ways of looking at it. So yeah, I've seen a lot of. I've been in other coaching programs where it's just one on one and I love those coaches to bits, but it is nothing compared to some of the group coaching programs. I've been in an image and now all of her. She's in a couple of different programs. She only gets coaching from group people because it's just, you get 10,000 times more done.

Speaker 2: 1:42:08

Absolutely and in fact, like I even think about a coach I had before where I really liked the guy and he was very helpful. But once it ended is over, it does kind of suck when you maybe have because you're going to, you're living life, you're going to have tons of other things you want to work on and stuff and having people maybe who have some of the mentalities that you might have liked from the coach to continue, to continue to have that support is really helpful.

Speaker 1: 1:42:32

I'll tell you a secret, the reason that I I was putting all this pressure on myself. In the first couple of years of being a coach, when I was just doing one on one coaching and there was no group component, I would put all this pressure on myself that I had to change the person's entire life, but I would only have three months to do that. And so think about the fucking pressure to change someone's life. It was like eating away at me. It was like the point where I couldn't sleep sometimes and sometimes I would do everything I could to help someone over those three months. But it's only three months. And, yeah, maybe I changed their life in those three months. But I was getting quite a few people that would hit me up like a year or two later and say, fuck, I made so much progress with you, andy, but in the six months since then I've done nothing. And they would come to me with a feeling of like guilt, where they were like I wasted your coaching, andy. I feel so bad because you poured your heart and soul into trying to help me.

Speaker 1: 1:43:25

And once the coaching was over, I was on my own and I couldn't do it. And then I felt guilty because I was like fuck, I didn't put anything in place to help you. And, fair enough, I was still building the business. And how the fuck would I know that at the start? But I quickly figured out, okay, what if I had a group coaching component, and then they could make friends with each other and then they could kind of keep each other accountable. And then we added more shit to that and then we had the lifetime access. You know the Discord they all get to stay in there forever.

Speaker 1: 1:43:50

And then, you know, over the last year or so, cam and I have had all the videos to the video library that hold your hand through the whole coaching process, and all the videos that we put in there of like what to do after coaching is finished, like how to keep working on your goals, and the video course that I just showed on the screen before. That's one that I'm currently working on, which is essentially going to be like holding your hand through the rest of your life, how I've achieved everything I've ever achieved, all the mental things I've learned, and all of that, and that's free for all my coaching clients. So we're building out all of these like different, like support networks and streams and ways of like helping people. All of that is so that I can like I'll be honest. It's so that I can do less work Like I'll be very honest about that.

Speaker 1: 1:44:28

But a beautiful side effect of that is like then I can help people more Essentially, if someone signs up for our coaching program, they should be fine for the rest of their life. Like that's what we're trying to build and we get people accountability partners for the rest of their life and make all of that shit like a thing that you get for the rest of your life, because I just I find that works so much better. When you sign up for coaching, you're definitely part of the family, like for the rest of your fucking life.

Speaker 2: 1:44:51

I think the lifetime value of it is. What made it a very easy like buy for me Is because the idea that there's this lifetime group where you are getting the support that you're looking for for the goals that you have and people meet there regularly, talk regularly and explore the topic further regularly that's perfect. That alone was worth me paying for it.

Speaker 1: 1:45:16

What do you think you would be if you hadn't signed up for coaching?

Speaker 2: 1:45:19

I think the thing that coaching mainly did was accelerate the fuck out of a lot of it. The way it did so was pretty much through continuous support and reframing of things. Essentially, if the main thing I got was this, I actually, I guess, learned how to self-love, which I didn't really know how to do before. I also just kind of did things which, honestly, might have taken a year or two before I eventually got to Because of all the beliefs that are kind of in the way, because I think what you do a good job is just kind of questioning everything and I get the benefit of actually letting go of maybe something I was holding on a bit more, holding too tightly, and, as you know, you might guide me to actually something a bit more positive. So, starting a business, having a threesome, having a lot more authentic and loving relationships with the woman I'm seeing Multiple Would have taken a lot longer Because I would have had to work through so many more beliefs on my own.

Speaker 2: 1:46:15

And on top of that too, I also think it would have taken me significantly longer to just be a more loving person, because I think I always had that lovingness in me and I always liked giving it to people, but in a way, I feel like it kind of made me feel like it's okay to do so, like more okay to do so. I think what I'm trying to say is I think I just wouldn't have been. This feels weird to say but as good of a person as I am because I am now. Now I actually do kind of feel that way Because of several of the things I have to offer, and a lot of those things that I feel like I have to offer came from you helping me recognize that I feel happier now and I feel like I have a direction. I love that.

Speaker 1: 1:46:53

If someone wants to sign up for coaching, but they're a little bit on the fence or they're hesitating, what would you say to them?

Speaker 2: 1:46:59

I would say the community itself is worth it. I'd also say Andy offers payment plans, which also makes it a lot easier to afford. Imagine having everybody who you've seen on, who maybe have stories you relate to and experiences you want being in that group and also being very willing to help you. Because, I'll tell you right now, community of that group is people all want to help each other. I posted the other day that I felt sad because I fucked a lot of things up and several people just went to my post and responded and gave advice and support. And also actually here's another thing too Andy's coaching is going to be like a two and a half hour calls. The Discord group has three hour calls each week and it's a lifetime access thing. So even if you feel like, oh fuck, it's only 12 weeks, no, it's more than 12 weeks because it continues anyways, You're getting a lot of people who will be supportive and helping you.

Speaker 1: 1:47:55

I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much for coming on. This was a blast.

Speaker 2: 1:47:59

I had fun, man. I appreciate you having me on. It's always good talking to you.